Curse

Sniper22 · Sep 11, 2008, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

And where is the benefit of the attributes? Your suggestion makes it litterally worthless.

Too limited. You have to make it bleed in order to steal health. How about "Inflicts bleeding on target touched foe. If target is already bleeding, steal 29...65 health."

uhm. The last part makes no sense. If target foe was attacking, you lose 2% hp INSTEAD?!? So if your fighting a warrior... this skill is literally useless. How about, "Steal 7...46 health from target foe. If target foe was attacking, you also sacrifice 2% health."

what the HELL? Necromancers don't even have a vampiric weapon mod. This is basically stripping it from the Necromancer use and putting it right into the hands of attackers. Most likely going to be Assassins or just not used.

I think it should be (15e, 1c, 15r) to be balanced personally.

Compared to the other enfeebling skills, this is well balanced. To compensate for the touch range, you add damage. [enfeeble] only gives weakness, [enfeebling blood] spreads that weakness, but you sac life. All three, compared to each other, are relitively balanced.

just change the and to an or, and I got no problem.

They put the skill back for PvE and PvP today, no need for this big of a change. (They should have kept the single minion way for PvP, imo).

If I didn't mention it (which I think was only one or two skills) I don't mind the proposition.

Oh, and btw, Blood is really useful all all around. I use it in PvE and PvP and I do fairly good. I only AB for PvP mind you, and I only die when I get dazed or mobbed. In PvE, I don't even know if I died while paying attention with a blood build.

1) Awaken, +2 atts typically sucks when it just replaces a potentially useful skill.

2) Blood drinker sounds fine

3) No like, u sac 2% instead of 5%

4) Lol just thought that would be kinda cool hahah, right now cultists fervor is useless though

5) Maybe for mark

6) Enfeebling touch deals like 41 damage in melee at 12 curses, very weak, poor team support which is the main role of necros. Possibly the old version could synergy with some sort of hammer war...

Ok the thing with blood magic, is that its good at surviving because it self heals, but if you dont want to deal more damage and eliminate the self heal, you really can't do that with the available skills. Even with cultists fervor and spamming skills, you're damage output won't be that great. You can't combine awaken with that skill unless you wanna just kill yourself. The suggested awaken and the current cultist's fervor would be great though.

MStarfire · Sep 11, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

You can't combine awaken with that skill unless you wanna just kill yourself. The suggested awaken and the current cultist's fervor would be great though.

If you're too big of a pussy to deal with the additional sac that Awaken causes, pair it with skills that don't require a sac. The problem is solved from your end and we get a reprieve from your bullshit suggestions because I've just made you a better Necromancer.

Oh, wait, you don't play Necro. Nevermind.

RiKio · Sep 11, 2008, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Kill life stealing and then we can talk.

This.

Also, your changes would bring back BS to life. So keep them on PvE

PD: BS FTW!!!!!!!

Sniper22 · Sep 11, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

If you're too big of a pussy to deal with the additional sac that Awaken causes, pair it with skills that don't require a sac. The problem is solved from your end and we get a reprieve from your bullshit suggestions because I've just made you a better Necromancer.

Oh, wait, you don't play Necro. Nevermind.

1) Um, I have been playing necro for over 40 months, and this skill is a waste. First thing, that skill I was talking about that you quoted was cultists fervor. Awaken + Cultists = Death.

2) Ok, so you wanna know why this skill sucks? For pve, it might be useful with SS or SV, but wow, like 10 more dmg on sv, 4 more on ss, its more beneficial to bring other skills such as enfeebling blood, sig of loss souls, etc. For pvp, pretty much all skills require some hp sacrifice that deal damage or that are useful, unless you wanna run some awaken/sv pvp build for like RA or something. The long recharge time is too vulnerable to an enchantment strip. Honestly I haven't seen one good necromancer in pvp use awaken the blood.

3) STFU I know how to play necro. Ya, I may not be a pro skill balancer like izzy (lol), but here's just some suggestions that I think would improve these skills from my experience.

Ya okay, I was just looking at this skill as far as damage output would go if you just spammed blood skills as much as you can. Vampiric gaze, angorodon's daze, vampiric spirit (with bleeding for e management). It would do approximately 3 additional life steal per sec... wow gg... Oh ya, don't forgot to not cast blood renewal with that skill on... ha

Konig Des Todes · Sep 11, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

1) Awaken, +2 atts typically sucks when it just replaces a potentially useful skill.

4) Lol just thought that would be kinda cool hahah, right now cultists fervor is useless though

6) Enfeebling touch deals like 41 damage in melee at 12 curses, very weak, poor team support which is the main role of necros. Possibly the old version could synergy with some sort of hammer war...

1. Awaken is more for a Blood/Curse combo necro, not a Blood only necro. A Blood only necro can have 12-16 attributes, awaken then is useless. A Blood/Curse necro with balanced attributes would have 10-14/11-15 in one and 10-13/11-14 in the other (assuming SR is the only other attribute and they are, as I said, balanced in numbers). With Awaken, you get 12-17 in each. That's a big enough difference with the amount of time you get for the enchant. But, yes, it does need to have a faster recharge (maybe 15/20/30 seconds instead of 45).

2. Ok, so cultist's could use a redo, so can a ton of skills, but your suggest made it from not-so-usefull (I have found use for it before) to 250% useless. So instead of redoing what the skill does, reduce how much you sac. It's not that hard to figure out. (although, with it being an Elite, I don't know why there is even a sac on it).

[Cultist's Fervor] I got a suggestion for Cultist's Fervor: (5e, 20%hp, 1c, 30r) "For 5...30 seconds, you gain +1...4 energy regeneration. Sacrifice 50% more health than normal."

Reasoning: The energy cost is low because of the sacrificing cost. The skill cannot be maintained to give an infinante 5-8 energy regen. And the sac cost was added to replace the sac of other skills with it on, to make it more useful, while adding the same drawback as Awaken the Blood to prevent major spamming of blood sacrificing skills (which usually have a faster recharge). This way, the skill would allow for spamming of skills, which was the intent, without too much drawback. And with the sacrifice 50% more health, that would discourage using the skill while it is already on.

Drawback: With Awaken the Blood, skills that sacrifice health sacrifice twice as much health. (SO DON'T USE HEALTH SACRIFICING SKILLS!)

3. Enfeebling touch does little damage, but compare it to the other Enfeeble skills. It does damage to compensate for it's touch range, the other Enfeeble skills don't do any damage. B-A-L-A-N-C-E.

Quote:

Ok the thing with blood magic, is that its good at surviving because it self heals, but if you dont want to deal more damage and eliminate the self heal, you really can't do that with the available skills.

If you want to do more damage and eliminate self heal. You need to go to Curses and Death. Blood is meant for the healing. Not for the "wtfpwning" damage like elementalists. Not everything in the game is just about sheer power ya know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Awaken + Cultists = Death.

Quote:

Oh ya, don't forgot to not cast blood renewal with that skill on... ha

You obviously don't know how to use Awaken the Blood. It's rather simple. DON'T USE SACRIFICING SKILLS! Maybe don't even use Cultist's with Awaken. Ever thought of that? Or, just go with what I suggested (and I know you will argue that my suggestion is just as flawed).

Sniper22 · Sep 11, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If you want to do more damage and eliminate self heal. You need to go to Curses and Death. Blood is meant for the healing. Not for the "wtfpwning" damage like elementalists. Not everything in the game is just about sheer power ya know.

Curses and death for awaken the blood? Why death, do u mean blood cause you need atts for awaken the blood? If you are going curses, imo the extra 2 atts still isn't worth it, adds on like 2 secs for your hexes which is not that big of a deal considering you can throw an extra skill in there for support. The only reason why I ever brought that skill, is because I have an empty slot and I don't really know what to throw in it.

On enfeebling touch... have you actually seen anybody use that skill? The only potential use for this skill is to use it if you got melee on you. You're not gonna run all the way to help your monk who might be getting hit by shock war, and its a long way to run to use it on a ranged attacker. Yes wow, armor ignoring damage, it's nothing that significant, considering most necros don't rely on going into melee for damage.

Edit - Ya I can see the 5 sec recharge time being useful for cheap dmg though if you're gonna get that close...

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Curses and death for awaken the blood? Why death, do u mean blood cause you need atts for awaken the blood? If you are going curses, imo the extra 2 atts still isn't worth it, adds on like 2 secs for your hexes which is not that big of a deal considering you can throw an extra skill in there for support. The only reason why I ever brought that skill, is because I have an empty slot and I don't really know what to throw in it.

In what you quoted, and what I was responding to in the quote (which I will soon fix to prevent future confusion) I was not talking about Awaken the Blood. I was talking about this:

Quote:

Ok the thing with blood magic, is that its good at surviving because it self heals, but if you dont want to deal more damage and eliminate the self heal, you really can't do that with the available skills.

Like I said, if you're a necro, and you want more damage, you need to go into Curses and Death, which focuses on dealing damage over self/party survivability.

Blood Magic, as a whole, is made from the idea of stealing life from others -and giving it to yourself - or stealing life from yourself and giving it to your allies or dealing damage to your enemies. In order to keep that line balance, Blood Magic shouldn't be able to be spammed without consequence. Hence Cultist's Fervor's backlash. And hence why the Blood Magic skills don't do a lot of damage. You have the life stealing too high, and the sac skills are basically worthless (as a smart person would know to use a sac skill then a life stealing skill, something that, through your arguments, doesn't seem to stick to you). And if you have the damage too high, then the "risk" that is meant for the profession becomes naught. Elementalists have high energy and damage, but their skills cost a lot of energy and cause exhaustion. Ritualists and Mesmers don't have energy gain from their primary. All casters have drawbacks that are meant to balance the profession (as a whole) out.

When you combine, oh say, [dark pact] with [vampiric gaze], the health lost from dark pact is back with vampiric gaze. With Blood magic, you cannot look at single skills and say if those skills are balanced, but look at the possible combinations to consider them balanced or not.

If the skills steal too much health, or deal too much damage, or even not sacrifice enough health, then the line becomes too powerful (and will then be nerfed to oblivion like [Smiter's Boon]).

Quote:

On enfeebling touch... have you actually seen anybody use that skill? The only potential use for this skill is to use it if you got melee on you. You're not gonna run all the way to help your monk who might be getting hit by shock war, and its a long way to run to use it on a ranged attacker. Yes wow, armor ignoring damage, it's nothing that significant, considering most necros don't rely on going into melee for damage.

Monks should be behind the Necromancer first of all. Second of all, there will always be skills that are more useful as a secondary necromancer then a primary necromancer, same for all professions. Enfeebling touch is the version of the other enfeebling skills that is meant for those going into necromancer for a secondary.

Sniper22 · Sep 12, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Second of all, there will always be skills that are more useful as a secondary necromancer then a primary necromancer, same for all professions. Enfeebling touch is the version of the other enfeebling skills that is meant for those going into necromancer for a secondary.

I'm pretty sure [shield bash] and [disciplined stance] > [enfeebling touch] for secondaries

MStarfire · Sep 12, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

I'm pretty sure [shield bash] and [disciplined stance] > [enfeebling touch] for secondaries

I'm pretty sure we > you for Necromancer knowledge.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 12, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

I'm pretty sure [shield bash] and [disciplined stance] > [enfeebling touch] for secondaries

Neither of the two skills you offered deals damage or gives weakness. Try again.

Sniper22 · Sep 13, 2008, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

I'm pretty sure we > you for Necromancer knowledge.

Ya stop with the pathetic flaming because it only shows immaturity. If you have a valid argument, please post it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Neither of the two skills you offered deals damage or gives weakness. Try again.

Weakness isn't that great of a skill as it doesn't stop attacks or reduce the addition damage dealt by attacks and the -1 attributes won't make much of a significant increase. Yes I know it does dmg, but what profession is going to use this as a secondary skill to deal damage? You mentioned that this is a better secondary skill, so what secondary is going to use it? Not monk, weakness will have no or little effect on stopping a sin spike. All other spell casters and paragons won't benefit from using this than necros. Rangers are gonna try to go touch way with this (god i hope not lol). Assassin's wont use this because weakness doesn't combine with any of their other skills and the damage is weak compared to all of their other skills. I guess derv's could use this along with that enchantment that reduces damage they take from foes suffering from a condition, but tanking in pvp is useless and its weak damage compared to melee attacks. The other skills that work off of weakness are hammer skills, earth skills, and oppressive gaze. No way an earth ele is going to run up into melee to use stoning to knock down targets and I highly doubt warriors are gonna use this skill to combine with other hammer attacks. So what secondary are you talking about?

MStarfire · Sep 13, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Ya stop with the pathetic flaming because it only shows immaturity. If you have a valid argument, please post it.

I don't think I need a valid argument. Your suggestions are all such crap, I could post 3,000 words on why hygiene is important and it would STILL be a valid counterpoint for your bullshit.

Professor Yoshi · Sep 13, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Wait, no one likes enfeebling touch? It's of my my staple skills along with Insidious Parasite. It's recharge is only 5 compared to Enfeebles 10. (at least in PVP)

Touch range isn't a big deal since the only people I really need to put weakness on are people meleeing me. The added damage is pretty nice since it's considered health loss, and cannot really be avoided.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 14, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

Rangers are gonna try to go touch way with this (god i hope not lol).

...

I highly doubt warriors are gonna use this skill to combine with other hammer attacks. So what secondary are you talking about?

Rangers adding that to Touch can work out. Putting it to a Axe Warrior can work as well (as some need weakened for extra effect... or was that Deep Wound *I don't play war much*) And Hammer Warrior can use it as well (Warriors already use Plague Touch, adding Enfeebling Touch, which is in the same attribute line, would work for adding weakness).

Also, Enfeebling Touch would be against melee. So you use it when a warrior or dervish is attacking you, as Professor Yoshi said.

You don't need to go to melee range. Melee professions do, which would allow you to use it on them.

And weakness is mostly used on melee (so using it on a sin spiker would be beneficial), not for the attribute deduction, but for the 66% less damage in attacks. Putting weakness on a caster is, as you said, dumb.

Sniper22 · Sep 14, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MStarfire

I don't think I need a valid argument. Your suggestions are all such crap, I could post 3,000 words on why hygiene is important and it would STILL be a valid counterpoint for your bullshit.

Someone seems to be a little angry over a game. Chill out

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor Yoshi

Wait, no one likes enfeebling touch? It's of my my staple skills along with Insidious Parasite. It's recharge is only 5 compared to Enfeebles 10. (at least in PVP)

Touch range isn't a big deal since the only people I really need to put weakness on are people meleeing me. The added damage is pretty nice since it's considered health loss, and cannot really be avoided.

Ya true, it does have the 5 recharge but again, necros won't always be the first one targeted. Most good RA/TA/whatever teams have monks and its usually them who are being pressured and targeted more, so you can be limited when you use this. So only under certain conditions this skill will actually be useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Rangers adding that to Touch can work out. Putting it to a Axe Warrior can work as well (as some need weakened for extra effect... or was that Deep Wound *I don't play war much*) And Hammer Warrior can use it as well (Warriors already use Plague Touch, adding Enfeebling Touch, which is in the same attribute line, would work for adding weakness).

Also, Enfeebling Touch would be against melee. So you use it when a warrior or dervish is attacking you, as Professor Yoshi said.

You don't need to go to melee range. Melee professions do, which would allow you to use it on them.

And weakness is mostly used on melee (so using it on a sin spiker would be beneficial), not for the attribute deduction, but for the 66% less damage in attacks. Putting weakness on a caster is, as you said, dumb.

No rangers will never add that touch skill because it will stretch their atts way too much with expertise, blood, and curses. Enfeebling touch needs a high attribute to deal the damage. Weakness has no effect on axe attacks, although one axe attack causes weakness if target has deep wound so this skill is useless for them. I don't see a reason why hammer warriors will need this while a simple [Staggering Blow] will do the trick without the energy or atts while provide armor penetration from strength.

Again, enfeebling touch isn't completely terrible, but I think it needs to be buffed a little bit to be more useful in more situations. I think someone on wiki suggested that it causes the caster to be weakened as well, so that way you can use plague sending to send it to others... think that would be a better buff IMO.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 14, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

No rangers will never add that touch skill because it will stretch their atts way too much with expertise, blood, and curses.

I said they could, not will.

Quote:

Enfeebling touch needs a high attribute to deal the damage. Weakness has no effect on axe attacks, although one axe attack causes weakness if target has deep wound so this skill is useless for them. I don't see a reason why hammer warriors will need this while a simple [Staggering Blow] will do the trick without the energy or atts while provide armor penetration from strength.

Like I said, don't play warrior much. So sorry about the Axe Warrior, I mistook the weakness requirement with the deep wound requirement.

Quote:

Again, enfeebling touch isn't completely terrible, but I think it needs to be buffed a little bit to be more useful in more situations. I think someone on wiki suggested that it causes the caster to be weakened as well, so that way you can use plague sending to send it to others... think that would be a better buff IMO.

If you buff Enfeebling Touch, you need to buff the other two enfeeble skills. That way they are balanced. And that wiki suggestion that you said, is more of a nerf then a buff. That is forcing you to carry another skill with that skill, and requires multiple targets as well. Not a good idea, imo.

Sniper22 · Sep 14, 2008, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

If you buff Enfeebling Touch, you need to buff the other two enfeeble skills. That way they are balanced. And that wiki suggestion that you said, is more of a nerf then a buff. That is forcing you to carry another skill with that skill, and requires multiple targets as well. Not a good idea, imo.

Well ya it might require another skill, but the whole point about builds is linking skills together. Like who would ever bring headbutt without plague touch? With that buff, a simple, enfeebling touch, foul feast, plague sending build could be good along with other skills.

Sir Tificate · Sep 14, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper22

[awaken the blood] This skill is like a terrible necro version of glyph of elemental power as it has a long recharge time and increase's sac by 50%. Functionally change to, (10e, 1c, 20r) "For 1...15 sec, you sacrifice 50% health and have a +5 health regeneration. No effect while under another necromancer enchantment."

Everyone seems to be reading this as:

Sacrifice 50% health. For 1..15 seconds, you have +5 health regeneration. No effect while under another Necromancer Enchantment.

I think it is just not very well worded, and is supposed to say:

For 1..15 seconds, you have +5 health regeneration and sacrifice 50% less health. No effect while under another Necromancer Enchantment.

...which makes a heck of a lot more sense, considering what he was saying about the skill.

That said, I think that would do better as a different skill entirely, rather than replacing Awaken the Blood.

AKB48 · Sep 15, 2008, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Tificate

Everyone seems to be reading this as:

Sacrifice 50% health. For 1..15 seconds, you have +5 health regeneration. No effect while under another Necromancer Enchantment.

I think it is just not very well worded, and is supposed to say:

For 1..15 seconds, you have +5 health regeneration and sacrifice 50% less health. No effect while under another Necromancer Enchantment.

...which makes a heck of a lot more sense, considering what he was saying about the skill.

That said, I think that would do better as a different skill entirely, rather than replacing Awaken the Blood.

Still /fail

Honestly unless you use blood spike(slow and ineffective in pve, mes/ranger food in pvp) the new version MIGHT be better.(not sure whether I want the +2 in skills or 50% less sac) Otherwise the older version is still better

Sniper22 · Sep 16, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Still /fail

Honestly unless you use blood spike(slow and ineffective in pve, mes/ranger food in pvp) the new version MIGHT be better.(not sure whether I want the +2 in skills or 50% less sac) Otherwise the older version is still better

No blood spike would actually go with the +2 atts. Other than trying to deal high damage, I don't see the point of adding 2 atts to make hexes last like 2 secs longer. If you have a curses based build or a curses/blood, I'd think that throwing in any hex to assist your team will be way better than awaken. Awaken also requires blood magic attributes to be efficient. I think the 50% less hp sac stacking with the currently cultist's fervor might actually make that skill useful.